Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Coming up on Max Impact, what are some of those things that people may not know about that are underlying causes to addiction, especially among men in general?
[00:00:11] Speaker B: The answer to fix the remedy to those things is to humble yourself. I couldn't do anything to help me. My best thinking, it brought me to the doors of Adult and Teen Challenge. Right.
[00:00:20] Speaker C: I am a new creation in Christ. Amen. While we talk about our past, I don't live in that because that past was God's mercy on me to bring me in relationship with him. Yeah, it's always a beautiful thing.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Max Impact here on the Mars Hill Network. Today I'm riding solo without Xander, but I do have two guests in the studio. We have a great topic for discussion here today on a very important topic, a topic we have not talked about yet, but on the Max Impact podcast. And I'm really excited because I got two young men here who are zealous and on fire for the Lord. They love Jesus Christ so much and they bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to this topic today. So to my left I have Brian Mullen. He is the statewide development supervisor.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: There we go.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: And then I got Jackson Young to his left.
He is the associate director of the Syracuse Adult and Teen Challenge and actually our newest pastor for the day here on Mars Hill Network. So, guys, welcome to the Mars Hill Network, One North Studios.
[00:01:36] Speaker C: Thank you for having us.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, good to be here.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: Amen. Amen. So as I mentioned, you guys work for Adult and Teen Challenge, but there are people, of course, that are listening, watching, they know what that is, but maybe there's people that don't know what Adult and Teen Challenge is. So you guys want to quickly, briefly explain what Adult and Teen Challenge is?
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. So Adult and Teen Challenge is a 12 month residential discipleship program for men and women that struggle with life controlling issues. Historically and primarily those life controlling issues are drug and alcohol abuse issues like addiction.
But it's not limited to that.
We will serve anyone that is in desperate need for help, that wants to be set free from the bondage of sin. So that might be something that's like homelessness, it might be anxiety, depression, even domestic violence situations.
I know that our women's home definitely will cater to people that are struggling with something like that. But basically it's a place and it's a time and a place where men and women can take a season of their life and come and really learn what it is to develop relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
To Be clothed, housed, fed, to have their needs met, not only physically, but emotionally, mentally, and, of course, spiritually. Right. The greatest need that we all have. So can't really stress that enough, that it is not a rehab, but that it is a discipleship program.
And the people that we serve, they come, they live on property with us, they spend the whole year with us, where we get the opportunity to really pour into them, where they get to receive love and. And counsel and learn what it is to be part of a fellowship and the community that is the body of Christ, what it is to serve one another, what it is to serve the body, and really what it is to be loved by God. Right. Because there's a difference between reading in the Bible that it says God loves you, and being loved by God. And so this is a time and this is a place for people to really understand what that means in their life and truly in their experience.
[00:03:46] Speaker A: Amen. Thank you for that. That's wonderful. So it sounds like to me, it's like an addiction recovery program and a discipleship program all wrapped up into one. Is that a fair thing to say?
[00:03:58] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. It's a very structured program, like Jackson said, you know, it is a Christian discipleship program, and we make that known when people come in. But we welcome anyone in. It is structured, and we do like the, you know, right out of the gate, we share the gospel with people. The first stage is getting to know the gospel, you know, but we will welcome anyone in and show them love. That's what separated this program for me. When I walked in was when I walked in, I felt the love instantly, and I knew that this place was something different.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Wow. Amen. So it kind of segues right into what I wanted to ask you guys next, like how you actually got involved with the Dalton Teen Challenge, how the Lord led you even to this space. So, Brian, you want to continue sharing about how you got involved with the program? And then, Jackson, you as well?
[00:04:42] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So, for me, I had gone to church when I was a kid. I knew of Jesus.
But as I got older and started working in high school, graduated high school, started working, dove right into the world. You know, I had to have make a living, and then I started having a family right out of the gate. Yeah, I had a great career. But once Covid hit, everything spiraled for me, and I suffered from alcoholism for several years.
But it was a church that told me about this program after I hit my rock bottom. And I lost everything from my marriage to my career. Almost gave up the Rights to my K.
The church welcomed me in and they showed me love, and they just poured into me for months.
And the last time that I drank, God met me where I was at and told me to pick up the phone and call the program. And by the time I got to the hospital for detox, they already had a bed lined up for me.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:05:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So after I detoxed for a couple of days, I went in the program. February of 2024, and one month in. Surrender my life over to Jesus.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: Amen. Yeah, amen. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And wow, that's awesome. And Jackson, how about you?
[00:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah, very, very similar, actually, to Brian.
I'm also a graduate of the program.
Grew up in the church.
Never really had, though, relationship with the Lord. Never really had a true faith, but more of a religion.
Growing up in the church and knowing about the Lord and knowing about the things of the word, but never really wanting him, never really desiring him, really. Spending more than half of my life living for myself and chasing after the things of the world, similar to what Brian said. So, yeah, I lived in the world and was of the world and wanted the things of the world from the world for a long time. Worked in corporate America for over a decade and just amassed wealth and did all these things that the world says to do, to be satisfied, to be fulfilled.
And I was anything but that. And I was completely empty. I was dead inside.
And that drove me into just destructive behaviors, primarily, and most controlling of which was alcohol addiction. And so for years and years, I struggled with that until it just became literally the thing that was running my life during COVID as Brian mentioned. Similarly, I started to work from home. And then. And things just went off to another level in a bad way.
And eventually I lost my job.
And I tried to get sober on my own for a little while, for about two months. Knowing, like, that was obviously, like, the main problem that I had. I wasn't, like, oblivious to that.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: And I would try and fail and try and fail and relapse a bunch of times during that. And all that while, my father was the one who was telling me, like, you know, you need to go check out this program. You need to look into this program. I'd never been to any kind of rehab before, Never tried it, never thought I needed it.
And my father had actually heard the testimony of a graduate of the program. He had recently graduated, and I had actually went through, like, youth group with him, like, you know, 15 years ago before that.
And so it was by his testimony that my father sort of heard through the grapevine. He kept just like beating the drum and saying like, check this out, check this out. And it was after like one particularly, you know, really depressing relapse for me, I just surrendered and said, hey, I'll go, I'll try it, I'll check it out. And I had no hope in the moment. I was, I was a hopeless alcoholic. And when we pulled up to Adult and Teen Challenge, I'll never forget reading the sign says hope has an address.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: And at the time I didn't really fully understand what God was doing.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: But I look back on it now and it's just seeing his providence and his care and concern for me. And it was about 60 days into a program that I thought I was going to stay at for 30 days that I, you know, was saved. God met me, received the gospel truly in my heart, transformed my life. And when I, when I graduated, like before I went to the program, one of the most difficult things, and still is to this day for people who come into our program to sort of grapple with is the fact that it's long term.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: It's a 12 month program.
[00:09:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: And I was like, I don't want to do this. I can't possibly go away for 12 months. That's insane. Like, I got to get back to my house, my job, my career, all that, whatever. Right. And what the irony, the great irony of God is that come 11 months when we started, 10 months into the program, when we start to talk about like an exit plan, here I am on the backside saying, well, a year is not nearly long enough. It's not long enough to know about God, to sit at the feet of Jesus, to serve God's people. And so it was at that point that I was offered an opportunity to come on staff with Adult and Theme Challenge. And so upon graduation I did that. And here I am three years later. So four years total, one as a resident, three years as a staff member. Wow.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: Amen you guys. Thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful. And you know, I was curious because it sounds like you don't have experience with other addiction recovery kind of programs other than Adult and Teen Challenge. It seems like one of the big differences is it's a long term program and then also the Christian discipleship aspect of it. But from your guys experience and just now being involved with the program as employees, are there any other differences I didn't touch on with Adult and Teen Challenge compared to other programs?
[00:10:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I had done. I had done a couple of 30 day programs, and with that I would string a little sobriety but fall harder.
And every time I. It's like every time I did a little bit more time, I fell harder. I ended up doing six months at a halfway house.
And that's when my biggest relapse happened.
So when I went to the hospital to go detox, it was by ambulance because I fell hard and the withdrawals were so bad. But the thing is that separated this program from other programs. A lot of the other programs for me was dwelling on I am an addict.
Whereas the Dalentine Challenge, I am a new creation in Christ. Amen. And there's power in that and there's hope in that. And while we talk about our past, I don't live in it. Yeah. Because that past was God's mercy on me to bring me in relationship with him.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:04] Speaker C: So it's a beautiful thing.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that is beautiful. And I love what you said. Like, you weren't like with the other programs. It seems like, yeah, you're dwelling in the past. And there can be some really tough spiritual ramifications with that too. In terms of, like, you're with a bunch of people who are not being exposed to Jesus and who knows what they're being exposed to? Maybe they're being exposed to some demonic stuff, but definitely not Christ like stuff. But at a Dalton Challenge, you are being exposed to the Bible, to the scripture, to the word of God, and then encountering the Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus. That's really beautiful. That's really beautiful. And so I wanted to get now more into like, the mindset behind addiction because, I mean, you guys have gone through that with like the alcoholism, the substance abuse, and you also see guys coming in regularly dealing with that. And so I wanted to know people who have dealt with this and talk about it. Like, there are some pretty obvious things, maybe like not a good home, upbringing, financial difficulties, pressures of life. But what are some of, like, the other root issues or things that, like, people are not very aware of that Maybe you guys have seen working boots on the ground in this all the time. What are some of those things that people may not know about that are underlying causes to addiction, especially among the men and men in general?
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's two that come to mind that I'll just say.
One is definitely like a personal one that I experienced. And then, like, because I experienced it personally, I'm able to recognize it in others and also minister to it.
And that would be like not knowing who you are.
It's the way to really describe it is having an identity crisis, right. And not really.
Not really knowing that you're having an identity crisis. And that's the problem, right, is being oblivious and ignorant to the fact that you don't really know who you are. And that might be fed by all of the things that you mentioned, right? The pressures of life and your home life and your family and your upbringing, all that might play into it. Right? But people are often. They're looking for a purpose, but you'll never understand your purpose, you'll never walk in it, unless you know who you are at your core. Right? And what. What's wrong with man is they're trying to define who they are through their lens of looking at themselves and not looking at the lens through God. Right. Because you can't know who you are if you don't know who he is. Right?
[00:13:29] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: And so people are trying. Are walking around this life day after day, year after year, century after century, not being able to answer that question and really not knowing that that's what they're really even struggling with. And the reason that I know that is because it's when I came to a full and true understanding of my identity in Christ that everything changed for me. Right? And he began to see things in the light and the truth of God's word and the light and the truth of who God is and what he's done for us. Right? And so that's one thing, is maybe the number one thing, but it takes time to get there. You can't start with a guy who shows up at the doorstep and say, you don't know who you are. Right? That's a layer, right? We talk about layers and peeling back the layers and an onion, so to speak, right? That's. That's a deep issue, and that's why people don't even know that it's something that they're struggling with, right? And it takes time to get to that, to expose it, and then ultimately to allow the Lord to heal it. Right. And the second thing I would say is. Is mentality, particularly what I would refer to as a victim mentality, that everything is happening, everything that's wrong in someone's life is happening to them, Right? It's. It's because they're. Because they blame. They take no responsibility. They're. They're unable to, or they're unable or unwilling to recognize the part they have to play in why they are where they are, right?
It's always an excuse. There's always something or someone else's fault. Right. Like, oh, my teacher never believed in me, my father wasn't there for me, my mother didn't love me, the government's always against me, the cops are always arresting me. All this sort of blame shifting, denial, inability to take responsibility.
And again, I say that not because I'm somebody wise, sage person, it's just that I see them. It's really on the back end. Once you see men and minister to men that have worked through that surrender, that begin to take responsibility, their lives are transformed. Right. And so, like, that's why I say that those are issues that, like, when you break through those things, when those strongholds get exposed and then torn down by the spirit of God, like, that's when transformation happens. And at least that's my experience working in ministry.
[00:15:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: Amen. And how about you?
[00:15:42] Speaker C: Yeah. I think two that stick out to me is people will justify small compromises.
You know, where I can do this a little bit because of X or I do this because of Y, and it builds up into be something big that becomes out of control. And that's something that I've witnessed over my time at ltchallenge. I think going back to mine is, is that that worldly sense of functioning. You know, I was a functioning alcoholic. You know, I would still do what I. What I needed to do. I think the best promotion I got, I was a functioning alcoholic during that time.
But because I got that, it's okay. And I was functioning until I couldn't anymore. And that's when everything spiraled out of control. And once you fall down that deep, it's hard to get back up again. Yeah. But those are two things that stick out to me.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Amen. Yeah, thank you for sharing that, guys. And the stuff that you both are saying really resonates with me because, you know, before I came to know the Lord Jesus, like, I had some issues with, you know, substance abuse and alcohol, like, just abusing it badly.
And it was only through really knowing my identity in the Lord Jesus Christ, becoming a believer, being born again and also taking accountability in that and actually walking in it, that really has transformed my life, you know, because, yeah, you come to know the Lord Jesus Christ and he does save you, but you have to walk it out day by day because Satan's right there trying to come at you.
[00:17:15] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: And so, you know, because I will admit too, like, when I first became a Christian, it's. I didn't like, just give that stuff up Right away, I had some deliverances for sure, but, you know, always tries to creep back in. But really was when I pressed it into my identity in the Lord Jesus is when I was able to really break through all that and get that freedom.
[00:17:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: So that's wonderful. And so, you know, maybe there are some men that are. This is just what's going through my mind right now. Maybe there's some men who maybe acknowledge the stuff that you guys have said, like, okay, like, I need to make a change, and I'm trying to make a change, but there are hurdles in my life.
What are some of those hurdles that you have seen that make it harder for men who are suffering from addiction to take that next step to recover and seek help?
[00:18:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I think for me, like.
Like the shame of reaching out.
I know for me, like, that was the biggest thing is even when I. Like, at first, I was in denial about it. Yeah. You know, but I didn't want to talk to. I didn't want to talk about it.
So when I. But when I finally took that first step and reached out to someone and opened up a little bit and was received, it helped me to open up more and more. And I think, you know, as men, it's hard to open up and be vulnerable like that.
Especially again, like, with what the world says and what the world views masculinity is.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:38] Speaker C: You know, so I think open up to someone. Find someone that you can grab a cup of coffee with. The first time I met with someone like I was and opened up, he took me to McDonald's for breakfast, and I was drunk. I was drunk when I went.
But he showed me love, and he talked to me like I was a normal person. He didn't stigmatize me. He didn't look down on me. Take a chance and talk to someone.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I think, you know, Brian hit it right on the head there.
The way that I would describe it is an unwillingness to be transparent and an unwillingness to be held accountable.
Those are hurdles that.
That exists that people don't really realize. And you could trace both those things really, to.
You could trace them to pride. Right. Really in our hearts as men, as fallen creatures, as sinful creatures. You can trace it to that. Right. You really can.
Because the answer to fix, the remedy to those things is to humble yourself and to receive help from something outside of yourself is to admit that you acknowledge that you. You can't save, you can't redeem, you can't rescue yourself, not even spiritually. We're Talking physically.
[00:19:51] Speaker C: Right.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: I couldn't do anything to help me. My best thinking, it brought me to the doors of Adult and Teen Challenge. Right.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: I mean, as smart as I was and as capable as I was and all these things. Right. Guess where that got me. Right. That got me where I had nothing, and it got me nowhere. And so it's really a pride issue.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:10] Speaker B: That's a hurdle. That is the hurdle. Right?
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: And you could trace all of that. Right. They don't want to acknowledge they have the problem. They minimize it. They downplay it. They won't be transparent and vulnerable with someone else. They'll go on. They'll try to. Try to get sober in their own strength. I mean, I did it. Everybody does it. Right. Oh, I don't have that much of a problem. I'll try and do this on my own and fix things. So those are the main things that I think that people maybe. Maybe don't even realize that they're fighting against.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: Yeah. That's so important because as men and what society tells us, like you were talking about just the whole emotional, like, oh, men are not emotional beings. Like, we're. We got to figure it out ourselves. We gotta, like, solve our own problems, like, you know, stop being a coward, you know, And. And sometimes these things are just. They dominate us. They rule over us. And I just love that.
Just the humility, reaching out, you know, don't have the pride that turns into shame kind of deal to reach out and make change.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: And the last thing I'll just add about that, and this is from another, you know, ministry perspective, is an unwillingness for. To admit that you don't know what's best for you. Right. And that goes hand in hand with the humility. Right. Is surrendering this idea that I know what's best for me, or surrendering this attitude that I want to do what I want to do. Right. And allow something and someone else to be the Lord of your life. Right. And for a season, it's the leaders in the ministry. Right. If we're talking about the guys in Teen Challenge, or maybe it's your pastor, but you need to come up under some spiritual authority, because if you're not able to do that here in an earthly way, you're definitely not submitting to the Lord Jesus Christ.
And if you're not doing that, there's no way to. To live a fulfilling and live a life that. The way that God has intended and designed it to be lived.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Amen. Yeah. That's really good stuff, you guys. You Know what's interesting is I was thinking about this before we were talking as new creations in Christ. As Christian men, we have this new identity. But we see. And it doesn't just happen with, like, substance abuse and addiction, happens with all kinds of sin where men just. They fall back into it. They fall back into their old man and their old self. And you know, that that does happen with addictions. So I'm just curious. Is addiction and substance abuse a big issue among Christian men, even that you've seen? And if it is, like, how do Christian men fall into it? What are some of the patterns you see among the Christian men? If you've seen Christian men fall into addiction, what are some of the patterns you see that make them fall back into addiction or more into addiction for the first time?
[00:22:58] Speaker C: Well, I think for me, kind of going back to those compromises, and it doesn't start off with whatever addiction it was.
It always starts off with something smaller that builds up. That's why even now, when I graduated the program, the first music that I started listening to wasn't the music I was listening to before going into the program.
It was listening to worship music.
95% of the music I listen to is straight worship music. Because I know, like, if I start regressing in other areas, it could lead to bigger things.
So I think, again, those compromises are a big way that people fall back into addiction. As far as, you know, Christians with addictions. Yeah, yeah, I see it. Like, I hear. I think that's the beautiful thing about a part of our program is when we get to go out there and we get to share it in front of stores and you hear stories from other Christians and you opening up and sharing your testimony about what God's helped you overcome, people will open up, too.
And that's where you can truly sharpen one another and encourage one another. I found out recently, a friend of mine growing up, that he grew up in a Christian household.
How he suffered from an addiction in his adult life, you know, because there are different things that different people have contribute to it. And that's what's cool. Like, when you really get to talk to one another, even though, you know your testimony is different than mine, there's a lot of things that overlap, and there's a lot of things we can help work each other through.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: Amen. Amen. What about you?
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say just to answer a question that you. That you pose like sin and the sin of addiction is certainly not discriminatory. Right. It's not like it's it's not like it's just for people that are in the inner city or it's just for people that are in their youth or it's just for people that don't go to church, Right? The churches are full of people that are struggling with addiction, Right.
All of the churches are like, that's just a sad reality of the culture. It's a sad reality of the time and place in which we live is that everyone in any church that you go to either knows somebody or knows somebody who knows somebody that is struggling with addiction. Right? It might be their co worker, it might be their relative, it might be somebody on their street, their neighbor. Right? But that's just the truth. And I'm not even talking from an anecdotal. I'm talking. That's a statistical reality, right? That is just the way things are.
And so certainly Christians and Christian men are within that population. Right? There's absolutely no reason to think that Christians wouldn't struggle with, with the sin of addiction. So it's not a discriminatory thing. I would also say this as far as patterns and if you're talking about relapse, right. People that struggle or fall back into sin again, I'll talk from the ministry. From my perspective with the ministry, a Christian, a man who's saved and has developed a relationship with the Lord that falls back into the sin of addiction.
It's not about what you pick up, it's about what you put down. Right? It's about those, those guys. We have what's called a restoration program within our program, and that's for men who have graduated previously, our full 12 month program. And they'll leave and they'll go and they'll try to, you know, live their life or whatever the situation might be, and they'll fall and they'll fall back into sin and then they'll come back and do a shorter version of the program we call the Restoration program.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:26:24] Speaker B: And, and every single time, 100% of the time, we'll ask those guys, how did this happen? What's the timeline, what went wrong? And they'll all say, I stopped reading my word, I stopped praying, I stopped fellowshipping with other Christians, I stopped going to church. It's not about what you do, it's about what you don't do. Right? And there's no magic in those things. But that is the quality, the cultivating of those things, those means of grace is directly correlated to the quality of life that you have. Right? Because it's directly correlated to the quality of your relationship with the Lord.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:27:01] Speaker C: And one thing I want to add, too, to that, like, you know, with our testimonies on alcohol addiction, there's so many addictions out there. Yeah. You know, it's not just alcohol. You know, it's not just drugs. You know, check your phone, see how much screen time you're on Facebook.
My alcohol addiction started with a food addiction when I was a child, and when I had gastric bypass surgery, I just stopped, substituted one thing for the next. Addictions come up differently, but ultimately, at the end of the day, it's a sin issue and it's a relational issue with the Lord.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: Yeah. I love what you just brought up, like, about how wide spreading addiction really is. I think, like, I think the. Like, the phones and the screens. I know, like, we're doing a podcast and people are watching it, and this is important.
But, like, even me, like, my job is. I'm a digital media director here, and I've been doing media for years now, but I struggle with that. Like, I really do. There are. Sometimes I look at my. My report and I'm like, oh, my gosh. I was on my phone for that long. Like, that's. It's a scary thing. And I really try to reduce it. I try to with. With reading and just being with other people and, you know, being in the word, all that stuff. But somehow I just. Like, it's just crazy to me, like, how much time that not. And if that's just me, like, maybe there's other people out there struggling with the same thing. And it's just what you said about the reasons why people fall back and what they don't do. Oh, man. Like, that. That really resonates, too. Like, for me, like, if I've gone a couple days without the word of God, I feel like I'm starved. And then you also, like, starved spiritually.
And it's interesting, like, you stop hearing the Lord's voice clearly, and then you start hearing a familiar spirit voice. Like, that's how I feel in a sense where, like, those temptations and everything starts to come back when you're not grounded in the word and just prepping yourself in the battleground every day, feeding yourself spiritually.
So there's something you mentioned. I want to get back to that in a second.
But there's a lot of men watching, maybe there's a lot of men watching, hopefully, that are struggling with this because they need help.
And maybe they're not going to the churches, but they're going to A podcast, and they're trying to deal with addiction. What do you recommend to them? If someone's going through addiction, they want to get help. What should they do? What steps should they take to get help today?
[00:29:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the first thing is reaching out to someone.
And this goes for the men that are watching, but also if you know a man that's watching or anyone watching, because we do also have a women's home in Syracuse, too. You know, just. Even if you know someone, be there if you're going through it. Reach out to someone. We really try getting to churches all across the state.
You know, that's where I found out about the program was from a church.
Reach out to someone.
You know, I think that's the biggest version.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean. I mean, we could. We could sit here and say, like, hey, here's our phone number, and we'll give that. If that's. If that's helpful. We have. You can do an online submission, information request. Yeah, Call. Call the center here in Syracuse. Locally, we'd love to talk to you, minister to you, even if you're the relative or the friend or the neighbor of someone that's struggling, just to encourage you to put resources in your hand. Like, you want to talk about practical steps. Those are all things that you could do. Like Brian said, reach out. But biblically, similarly to what Brian said, I just keep thinking About James, Chapter 5. Confess to One another that you might be healed.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: This is what the longing in your heart when you want help. What you want is the comfort of the Holy Spirit. Right. And God is faithful to provide that right. God is a refuge for those who seek him, cry out to him, pour out their hearts before him. So I would encourage you to reach out to confess to one another, to a pastor, to a man of God that you know.
And ultimately we would love to speak to you and sort of walk alongside you in the process of recovery that is possible. Right. Hope is available.
Right. Transformation can happen, but it only happens through the gospel of Jesus Christ.
[00:31:30] Speaker C: And one thing I want to say, too, to that is don't wait until you're at your rock bottom.
Don't wait until you lose that job. Don't wait until the marriage ends. Don't wait until you're passed out behind a dumpster. Do it now.
Do it now. Because it could be. It could be the opportunity to break something before it gets worse.
[00:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen. And you guys already mentioned it, too. There's loved ones of people who are going through this, where they see someone they know who's addicted. And you even said, too, there's people in churches that are suffering from this. And I want to touch on that first, because of course, there's the family, friends, loved ones, but then there's also, like, the spiritual family.
So if I'm in a church, if I'm in my church and I see somebody and maybe the Holy Spirit's giving me the revelation, or I can just see clearly that this person looks like they're struggling with some sort of addiction. I mean, of course, some of the other ones, like the phone screen and other things, may not be super visible, but like, let's say in the sense of, like, substance addiction, maybe it's alcoholism or other drugs. And, like, you can. You can see it on the person. You can see something's up. Like, how do you address that with that person?
How do you go up to that person, whether it's a man or a woman in the church? And I'm sure there's different ways you do it for men and do it different ways you do it for women. But how would you guys do that? How should I do that? If I see somebody I know like that?
[00:32:57] Speaker B: I would say two. Two things that come to mind. I think the first thing is with discernment, right. Knowing sometimes wisdom is not what to say, but what not to say. Right?
[00:33:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:08] Speaker B: And. And the timing of something like that, like, if someone's visibly under the influence, that's not the time to minister to them. Right. Although that might be the thing that reveals to you that somebody's struggling with something, but that's not maybe the time to engage them in spiritual conversation. Right.
I would encourage you in a situation like that, see what physical needs you can meet. Right.
Often the people that are struggling with something like that, they might have a physical need, whether they need a meeting or a place to sleep. And I'm not saying, like, welcome them into your home, although if you want to do that, by all means do that. But I'm just saying, like, help them find somewhere that they might need to go, even if it's just in the short term.
So discernment, I think, is if we're asking, like, how to approach a situation, how do I see someone? And this could be an encouragement to someone that's in the church and they go out on the street and they see somebody that's clearly struggling with that. So do it with discernment.
Don't put yourself in a dangerous position. And then the other piece, I would say is do it with compassion. Right? Like Jesus, right? He draws near to the broken and the busted and the disgusting. Like, over and over and over again, he draws near to the leper and to the prostitute and everyone else in the society and even in our today and age. And the Pharisees did it and we do it now, too. They look at those people and say, oh, thank God, I'm not like them, right? When Jesus, he gets closer, right, he calls the tax collector to come and follow him, right? Like that's. And that's. So we need to approach, we need to view, we need to see people the way that God does. And that's first and foremost. I think primarily Jesus is motivated by compassion. He doesn't pull any punches. He gives them strong biblical truths, right? To repent and believe. We're not sugarcoating that they have a sin issue, but he loves them, right? And so approach people with compassion. Approach people with discernment.
[00:34:59] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:34:59] Speaker C: I think the one. The one word that hits my heart right now is prayer, first off is praying for you to be the Holy Spirit, to use you in a way to speak to what they need to hear. There's been times where I've said something like, I don't know where that came from, but it's what was needed to be heard and pray for them.
The more I started to opening up and more. More people started to pray for me, transformation started happening. You know, strongholds started coming down in those moments. So prayer is big.
[00:35:30] Speaker B: And let me go. Let me take that a step further. If this wasn't what you were saying, and maybe you were. Don't just tell people you're going to pray for them. Pray for them.
[00:35:38] Speaker C: Yeah, pray for them.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: Pray for them right there. Pray for them Right then, right again. Use the discernment, use the compassion that I talked about. But, like, don't be like, yeah, yeah, I'm praying for you, brother. Pray for them, right? Step out in faith and believe that God is going to give you the words that this person needs to hear, that God is going to give them ears to hear what they need to hear. Because it's not about what you say, right? It's not about having the right mix of words in the right order that's going to change somebody's heart. That's God's work, right? He's just asking you, are you willing? Are you available? Are you faithful? Will you go, right? So it's being obedient to the prompting of the Holy Spirit in that moment, right? Not letting that moment pass you by, even if it's scary. Even if it's uncomfortable. Maybe. Especially if it's those things.
[00:36:19] Speaker C: Especially.
And don't stop praying after.
When I was in the program, every time I went on a pass, I would been praying for you. I've been praying for you. Don't stop praying for that person.
God hears those prayers.
[00:36:32] Speaker A: Amen. That's beautiful, you guys. And just two things I want to touch on what you said, the whole, like what to say versus what not to say. I heard it once said that wisdom is you using the wisdom, knowing how to use. Or excuse me, using the knowledge, knowing how to use the knowledge. And prudence is knowing when to use the knowledge. So that's really important. So wisdom and prudence of the utmost. And that's what I got from that. And then the prayer too, that's so powerful. And actually one of the pastors from my church, he had mentioned that one thing we should do, whether men, women, anybody who's a believer when you're praying, like, pray with the word of God. And so when I think about this situation with these guys, like, these guys need to hear the word of God. And before the interview, I did look up a couple of scriptures.
You know, there's a lot here. I'm not going to read them all, but there are just these scriptures here, like the Lord's Prayer, you know, I think even just like for somebody, just hearing the Lord's prayer would be great. And in the Lord's Prayer, Matthew 6:13, he says, lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever. Amen. And then like First Corinthians, chapter 10, verse 13, you know, no temptation is overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful that he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, what you're able. But with the temptation, he's also going to provide a way of escape. He will provide that way of escape that you'll be able to endure it. And so, I mean, these are things that, that men who are struggling with addiction can probably pray for themselves, but like for us who know the word of God and rightly divide it, like we should be praying that over them. Men need to hear that so that as you're praying, you said, and taking that bold step, they hear the word of God and the Lord can work in that so, so much.
And so another question before we wrap up here. Back to the loved ones, the family members. The loved ones, like they. They know a person struggling with addiction and it could be their Their kid or another family member, loved one, whatever. They know someone struggling with addiction, they reach out, hey, you need to get help. Like, I know you're struggling. Like, here's a Dalton Teen Challenge. They just put a resource in front of them, and then that person's reluctant to get help. They're like, I. I don't need it. I don't want it. Keep that far from me. What do you do in that instance? Like, how can you still help that person or still try to help that person in a way that doesn't keep pushing them further away from your relationship with you, the relationship they. You would like them to have with God, but also pushing them, like, deeper into the addiction. Like, how do you deal with that?
[00:39:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I could just. I'm just thinking off the top of my head here a couple things that I might encourage people to do is maybe have that person or ask that person if they're willing to have a conversation with your pastor, with their pastor. And the pastor doesn't have to and probably wouldn't necessarily come out and meet with that person and talk about their addiction. Right. And we're not talking about doing an intervention. Right. I don't think that that's always needful and necessary because we talked earlier in the podcast. There's so many other emotional, psychological, spiritual issues that underlie addiction, because that's the truth. Like, addiction is just the manifestation of a deeper root problem. Right. And so your pastor is going to be someone who. A resource that's hopefully available to you, that can help to sort of uncover, peel back those layers, begin to have conversations around those things so that. And then apply, like we were just talking about, apply the word of God in those situations for those people and sort of come at the issue of addiction without coming at it and sort of driving that person away. Right. Because there's so much guilt and shame, and even some people's identity gets wrapped up in their addiction that as soon as you attack that, they don't, they get afraid.
[00:40:33] Speaker C: Right.
[00:40:33] Speaker B: And they get defensive. And so that. That's what drives them away. They get offended. Right. That's another thing. We talked about pride earlier, too.
[00:40:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: I mean, it's probably is going to come to a point, you know, depending on the severity of the situation, where my encouragement would be to, you know, to show that person tough love. You're drawing. Drawing a line in the sand of when you're not going to enable them. Right. Like, you know, if that's giving money or giving rides or allowing them to stay at your house. Like, those are all conversations that, like, it's going to come to that point. But what I will say is this.
Don't give up.
[00:41:09] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: Consistency.
I'll just speak for myself. My father just kept beating the drum like, you need help, you need hope. You need help, you need hope. And then the day that I finally gave up, I called my dad and he came, you know, and so it's like, don't give up on that person. I know that's gonna be really hard. I know you've probably cried. I know you've probably had your heart broken a million times.
Don't give up on them. Don't.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: Amen. You want to add anything to that?
[00:41:40] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, exactly that. Like, don't give up. You know, sometimes tough love is needed, and it is finding that fine line you gotta walk. You know, my similar. But with my mom. Like, my mom's kicked me out. Like, when I was living with her, you know, she was the one that. When I dumped that last bottle of wine, she was the first person I ran to, you know, and before I went to the program, she's like, thank you for going, because I thought I was gonna have to bury you. Like, she never gave up. So don't give up. And another thing, too, is while they're going through it, we've talked about, you know, before, we were talking about how people will have that victim mentality, and we do have to show tough love. But people go through things, people have, and they've coped with them differently, you know, so don't. Don't take away from what has happened to someone that's gotten to them to that point. Definitely show them the tough love and. But help them get through it. And I think being available is. Is important, making yourself available for people, because that's when they'll open up and they'll make that call.
Amen.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: Amen. Yeah. And one more quick question before we wrap up. I keep coming with the questions that keep coming. You guys serve in the men's home, and then there's also the women's home that's opened up recently, which, praise God, I'm so excited to see that open up. I've. I remember the days when they. They got the home and they were renovating it and all that. So, you know, praise the Lord for that.
[00:43:02] Speaker C: But it's a beautiful home.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: Yes, it is. But I wanted to ask, like, just a quick question. What differences have you seen? Like, or maybe what things you recommend people do differently? I'll put it that way to reach out to men who are struggling with addiction, to then reaching out to women who are struggling with addiction. Are there any things you should do differently?
Any advice on that you'd want to give people?
[00:43:28] Speaker B: I really don't. The thing that comes to mind would probably be the way that we would minister in the program is have women minister to women and men minister to men. And so I don't have any sort of even anecdotal experience to say that it should work that way with, you know, sort of encouraging someone to get help.
But maybe that, like, sort of maybe think about that. Obviously, family members, it doesn't really matter if it's. If it's your dad ministering to his daughter like that. A dad and a father and daughter situation, like, that's. That's a different dynamic. But, yeah, I guess I don't. I don't really have a good answer to that question. I don't think, because I don't have it. Respect. Really. Any experience ministering or encouraging women either in the program or before they come into the program?
Typically, we would defer. If someone were to call the men's home and say, hey, I have this woman that needs help that's struggling. We wouldn't try to minister to her. We would refer her to the women's home to begin the ministering process and to encourage her and try to go through the preliminary steps to coming into the program. So that's the only thing that kind of comes to mind is I come back to saying, like, use discernment.
Find a good godly woman, strong Christian character of a woman that maybe has been in the church or that has experience, pastor's wife or a ministry or a leader in the ministry in your church or something, and see if they might be available to talk to that person.
[00:45:01] Speaker A: Yeah, okay.
[00:45:04] Speaker C: No, I was gonna say. I was just gonna echo him. Yeah, exactly what Jackson said on it, because we all have different. Different traumas and how we handle it, so. Exactly what he said.
[00:45:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I guess back to the example I was mentioning earlier with, like, say it's not a familial relationship, but just like a spiritual family relationship. I guess then what you're suggesting is that if I'm a guy and I see a girl struggling, maybe, like, how it would be better for another woman to go deal with that situation and minister to her. Right. And then vice versa. If a girl sees a guy struggling, she should tell a guy and say, like, hey, like, I think you should go minister to that man.
[00:45:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Again, it's. I keep saying this word discernment like it's going to be dependent on the situation. Right. If we're talking about an immediate imminent thing that needs to be addressed, like, well, you might be the one that God is calling to step into that situation. Right. God will use anyone and anything to draw people to himself. And so really being tuned to the prompting of the Holy Spirit situationally. Right. But I think if we're speaking generally, yeah, that would be my recommendation is women minister to women, men minister to men, even encouraging them to get help or just talking to them.
[00:46:18] Speaker C: And I think one thing too, that's important too is if it feels like a more immediate, is having accountability there, you know, because a, you know, you know, watch out for all, all areas. Right. But also to get, you know, there's been times where I've ministered to one of my wife's friends with her present. You know, I don't want to take away from what I feel like the Holy Spirit may be wanting me to say, whether it's even a verse. Right. Like, you know, but having my wife there, it's important to have that accountability.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:46:46] Speaker A: Amen. That's really good. Really good. So before we wrap up, guys, is there anything else that you want to share on this topic to the men that are watching and really anybody that's watching for that matter, that we haven't talked about today? Anything else you'd like to share with them before we go to help minister to them, to help them know what to do in these situations with people and men struggling from addiction? What would you say as your closing words?
[00:47:16] Speaker C: I think the closing part would be just, you know, building a foundation on Christ.
You know, and I think that was the thing for me is before I had a relationship with him, it's like my building was high up there, but that the foundation wasn't solid, so it came crumbling down. I think that's one of the great things about a program like Adult and Teen Challenge is Christ is the foundation. But it is still.
We have a holistic approach where we layer in different things, whether it's relationships to the vocational side of things. But you have to have a foundation in Christ to be able to build upon it. So stay pressed into the word, stay in community and pray.
I think that's very important.
[00:48:01] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Just my strong encouragement is that transformation is possible.
Hope is available.
Will you avail yourself of it?
Humble yourself.
Submit to the Lord. Flee from the. Resist the devil. He'll flee from you. Draw near to God. He'll draw near to you.
[00:48:22] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: Yeah, like, don't. Don't think that you're too far. Don't ever think you're too far gone.
[00:48:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: Don't ever think you're too dirty, and you've done too much wrong and you've done so much bad, and you've just destroyed so many relations. God is a God of restoration.
[00:48:41] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:48:41] Speaker B: God is a God of reconciliation.
[00:48:44] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: And so God longs to be gracious to you, right?
And that's it. And that's what the program offers. That's what the Christian life is. It's all about. It's about being reconciled and then walking with him. And so Jesus says, come unto me, right? All who are weary, heavy laden, and come find rest for your soul. And so just come.
[00:49:07] Speaker C: Amen.
[00:49:07] Speaker A: Amen. Oh, amen to that. That's really good. I would just close. My thought would be just with this scripture that I found before the podcast episode, you know, because we love scripture here on Max Impact. I'm just gonna read it. And this. This goes for the people who are suffering from addiction. This goes for the family members and the friends, the loved ones who know somebody.
Then there's a lot I could read, but I'll just stick with this one for now. First Peter, chapter 5, verses 6 through 11. It says here, humble yourselves therefore, under the mighty hand of God, so that at the proper time, he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him because he cares for you. Be sober minded. Be watchful or vigilant. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour. Resist him. Be firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
I think that scripture speaks to everything you guys shared, and I think that's a really great, great place to wrap up. So, guys, thank you so much for coming on.
[00:50:24] Speaker B: Thank you, brother.
[00:50:25] Speaker A: To Max Impact. Really, really appreciate it. And everybody, thank you so much for watching this episode of Max Impact or listening to this episode of Max Impact. And we hope you tune in again sometime soon here on the Mars Hill Network with Max Impact. We hope to make a maximum impact for the kingdom of God. We'll see you again sometime soon.
God bless.
[00:50:47] Speaker C: Sa.
